Natural Planning Model - GTD® Series Part 2 - Episode #266 of CloudFocus Weekly

Machine transcript generated in 2026 from the episode audio (Whisper speech-to-text with automatic speaker separation). Speaker labels are automatic and may be wrong in places. Timestamps shown every few minutes.

00:51 Jason Atwood: After as our GTD series again, and afterlife why they doing this whole GT These thing for weeks you can come back We'll be talking about Salesforce and cloud and apple and we'll be arguing and we'll be arguing anytime soon But this is our for series on TD diving into some things that we have and talked about a lot. Kind of more cultural in our company and how we're using it from work and sort of that. So this week we're talking about the natural planning model.

Justin Edelstein: So how do you want to begin? The natural planning model. I don't know. How do you define the natural planning model? Nice pun. Nice pun. a nice pun. That was a good pun. I always think of mind mapping when I think of this.

Jason Atwood: And and really the project to get Your brain is really good at getting to, and this is a huge thing in GTD, is the next action. And it's really, you said in the last podcast last week, that you said that capture was so important. And that we'll talk about week review next week. The next action is such a powerful powerful tool and I think it is so hard to get and and I and I've trained people on it and I sat with people and To get that into your world and to figure out how to get to the actual next action, the one that is the true next action is difficult.

03:51 Justin Edelstein: I've heard you have this conversation, right?

Jason Atwood: Where it's. With you, with a you know,

Justin Edelstein: I've sat in on a number of coaching sessions that you've had here at Arkus and talking to people about GTD. And it's like, you know, you you've you've said, you know, I pay your credit card bill. It's like you can't pay your credit card bill like you can't just look up at the sky and pay your credit card bill Right like you have to do something What's the first thing you need to do and like you know struggle with that like you have to think about it? It's like well first you have to like you know, maybe know what your credit card bill is Well, no, not that's not really the next thing that you need to do. It's like like find my credit card bill, like log into website where credit card bill is.

Justin Edelstein: It's a struggle because you don't want to get too granular with it, right? Like pay credit card bills shouldn't be a 14 step project. Yeah. But a three step project.

Jason Atwood: It could be, right? But so let's bring that into natural planning model because the the important piece of that is And this is I guess anti-capture and this is where I think people struggle and I thought you do this in one of your Iterations and falling on and off the wagon was you would get very detailed about your projects Like you'd write out the next seven things that had to be done on the project. You kind of go Okay, so if it's play pay credit card, let's say buy a car You'd be like, okay I got a shop for a car then I got to evaluate the cars and I got to talk to the wife about the cars and I got to take road drives in the cars and I called my friend about the cars then and you like do like 17 of them.

Jason Atwood: And when I teach people about GTD and using the tools and whatever, I say for any given project, and this is actually true GTD, this is not even my take on it, for any given project, you only really need to have the next thing to do. That's right. Don't worry about the thing after the thing, because the thing after the thing. It will come up because it will be informed by the next section. And you certainly don't need to write down, stand up, open door, walk outside. There's a level of them that shouldn't, you know, so when you're thinking about the natural planning model and you talk about that example, yes, it's not open up keyboard, type in thing, right? Somewhere between two and 20 minutes worth of work. So if you're thinking about how do I think about it, projects are things that do within a year that are bigger and that need more than one action to do.

Jason Atwood: They can't pay credit card isn't something. You have to do something to pay credit card. Buy a car. You don't actually just end up with a car. You have to, there's a lot of series of steps. At the end of those series of steps, you have a car. So those are projects. the action should be somewhere between two and 20 minutes. Two minute rule says it shouldn't be under two minutes, and 20 minutes is a good cutoff to say, don't, if you're saying I wanna write a book, the first one isn't write book, the first project isn't sit down and write book. First one might be, again, could be 100 things depending on how far you are, but it might be. See you next week. write a page, go get a book on writing books, who knows.

07:23 Jason Atwood: But I like to keep those next actions as part the natural planning model under, again, two to 20 minutes is about where I try to keep them. Because that makes doable, because if the next action's like. Thank you. It's a 15 hour long thing your brain when you look at it would just go It'll go no, I'm not dealing with it. Good sound effect. Yes a great sound effect job on the board there so it's really interesting getting through natural planning model of how people think about it and Getting them trained to go through that little process to kind of get to that thing and to do it Not so it's like me sitting there going, okay, so you don't have the phone number, where is the phone number? I gotta call my friend. Well, where's your friend?

Jason Atwood: Do you have your friend's phone number? I do. It's on my phone. Is your phone in front of you? Like doing that so they could get it, but then so it just becomes natural. So you just kind of, you can quickly think, well, here's the next thing I need to do. Right.

Justin Edelstein: I love the, the true next action. Like the true capture of just specifically the next thing that I have to do. Because if I just know the next thing that I have to do, it will get me to naturally, to the next thing that I have to do. And eventually, the project, or the objective that I'm trying to solve for, and the outcome that I'm trying to achieve. will be achievable if I just keep following the next step to get to, and I think that this is also a big part of it, is seeing the finish. I have to understand what the finish is. What is the thing I'm trying to achieve? What is the outcome that I am seeking here? Okay, fine. I can't do that all in one fill swoop, right? I know that.

Justin Edelstein: But the first thing that I need to do is this. And going back to last week, let me capture that and get to it with some time constraints around it. Because I know that as part of this, like I know that I need to achieve this outcome by a certain date. let me start with this thing because it's the first thing I need to do to get the ball rolling. It'll make me feel good that I've gotten the ball rolling and it'll inform me on what the next thing I need to do is. And that just feels better than... like an excel sheet or a Microsoft project plan where I'm quite literally stating like 17 different tasks that are all dependent on one or two or whatever with a Gantt chart. That just makes my brain hurt, right?

Justin Edelstein: And it's hard sometimes, you know, in our industry of working in technology. sometimes there's a clash there where it's like, well, can I get a timeline on that? Or can I get a, you know, can I get a, like the date when like that in your mind, it's like, well, that's like eight actions away. Right? You know, like, like, I'm not thinking the same way you're thinking about this. So to get you that date, like I'll give you a date if you need a date. I'll try and work towards it or whatever but that's not how my brain's going to process getting to the outcome Right like all you're asking for is a date. I'm just trying to get a thing done Right where you're on two different levels right now Roll out Salesforce is

10:56 Jason Atwood: The is the project roll out Salesforce to sales team So okay again in the master prony model. I wouldn't go ahead and put together a Gantt chart and like whatever I would say well Let's start at the beginning. What's that mean to you? Well, the, the visionment at the end of this is I have, I know I threw a good word in there. Envisionment. I threw that one in there. That's a good one. We'll see if anyone catches that. They won't. is I have 12 people on the sales team logging into Salesforce. They're using it. They're logging their calls. They're using Salesforce for leads and opportunity management, activity management. and they're all using it every day as part of their daily sales activity. So that's the outcome. So then you think, well, okay, but where am I now?

Jason Atwood: You have to do the dissidents to say, I am nowhere near that. So you have to say, well, how far am I away? I could be at the point where we're almost done. Or I could be like, well, we haven't even purchased the licenses. We haven't even researched it. We haven't picked a partner. We haven't like whatever it is. So then then you'll kind of go back to where you are now. And this is the beauty of it. The brain and the planning models, your brain will say, well, I see where you want to be and doesn't be physical. But sometimes it's nice to think about it that way. And I know where I am now. And I can, there's all this stuff in my way. Like I don't have licenses. Okay, that seems like a good thing.

Jason Atwood: Can you buy the licenses? Yeah, let's buy licenses. Well, how do you buy the licenses? Oh, I don't know how to buy licenses. Okay, so maybe, and a lot of next actions are, go figure it out. You know, David Allen, I love one of his things and I'll quote him, well, whatever. It's his productivity methodology. So. So. He'll say, sometimes the next thing is pick up a phone and call somebody at random or call a friend. What do you know about X? Sometimes I'll find the projects are kind of sitting not moving forward and I see them and I'm like, I don't know what to do. I'll see you next action. I think one of the tricks and the things that I... of the tricks that I've learned over the years, is to make sure that sometimes that next action just needs to be changed or done differently or broken down into something even smaller.

Jason Atwood: Because sometimes you're looking at it and you're like, oh, why is this project not moving along? Like, well, the next action has something either I don't want to do or I'm not really sure is the right next action. Because a lot of times you have to interface with other people. A lot of the next actions for projects of mine are like talk to wife. Like, you know, because. Honestly, I don't make every decision in my life. Our decisions, there. There are a lot of things in our life we have to make together. So sometimes it's that's it like vacations and stuff like that. It's like talk to wife. That's the next action agenda Sarah, like it's and it's true because then I'll go that'll remind me to go talk to her and that's almost sit down.

Jason Atwood: We'll have an hour that we can have tons of actions and capture them. I might but I'll make one and we'll talk and she might have some outcomes like I say oh I, I'll do this and I'll get the tickets and when it was look at the dates and whatever and then. We might do a ton that never gets written down. And that's the thing I think people get crazy about GTD. It's like you don't have to write down more than you need. You just need to write down the next action. And 10,000 things could happen and then just write down the next one.

14:10 Justin Edelstein: Right. And what's the big thing? The big thing is like, how many actions do you need to capture in a project? And I mean, the answer is really like... until you stop worrying about it. Like, if it's one, then I've done fine in planning that project out. And that seems so weird, right? It is, it is. But it's true. If it's off your mind and you're not losing sleep over it, you're not stressed about it, and you're not worried about it because you've got one thing, the next thing you need to do. Right. Then you've captured and planned the appropriate amount.

Jason Atwood: That's it. And the rest of the system will then take care of it. Then this is why, you know, again, we talked in the first episode, they said, you know, if there's one thing that's this and they all work together really well. You can have different pieces of the puzzle, like you. I guess you could have a week review if you weren649 very good chapter and glared. You could capture stuff but not very very good in the natural planning model or you know There's just different or organized like there could be different parts You're not good at but if you get them all together and they start working and you actually capture very well and you review it Weekly and you know how to plan out the real next action It becomes this very very powerful thing and you'll realize a how Relaxed you are and we'll talk about we could review and like all the great mental things it does for you But be how much stuff you can get done.

Jason Atwood: I don't know if you have friends that tell you this, but you know, I have people in my life who are kind of struck a little bit by the amount of stuff that I have on my plate and I seem to just sort of like get it done and like it all happens. And I'm like, well, that's not free. I didn't, I didn't, just wake up one morning and have it. I spent 14 years practicing something and using a tool and doing this because it helps me be better. And if you get really good at it, it's amazing. And you can do a lot and you can get a lot more things you want to get done in your life and not lose sleepover and not be stressed out. It's one of my least stressed out.

Jason Atwood: Stress is something. thing. You bring it on yourself and GTD is a great way of reducing the amount of stress. So anyway, I think the natural planning model is something that people really, really struggle with.

Justin Edelstein: We've had an employee who said to me, I don't know when... you sleep. Right. And and that's not even seeing like the personal life side of things. That's just seeing the work side of things. And that's where I think, again, the the natural planning model works across. It's a really, you know, there's not many. There's not many models that you can take from work and bring to home. There's not many models that you can take from home and bring to work. Where it's like, alright, you know, we follow the waterfall methodology for building software. I'm going to follow waterfall at home. Right. Really? For my marriage. Really? That's the waterfall marriage. That's going to, you're going to do that? No. Project plan for like, you know. brushing your teeth like what I mean, that's not a good example, but take requirements teeth right requirements Then you go into development off all development toothpaste squeeze like really like but but the idea of This productivity methodology and and this model working across your entire life and allowing it to exist within your entire life is where you really hit the sweet spot because it's like wow like you know you've said friends of yours like how do you get all stuff done or you know how do you when do you sleep how do you make like really you take all this stuff on and And then that's not even seeing the half of it.

18:38 Justin Edelstein: It's like, well, there's home too, by the way.

Jason Atwood: Well, I think that's a, I mean, it's not part of our, the natural planning model, but it's something that I have found, again, David Allen saying is that, the, your brain can't separate out work from life. Like your brain tasks, projects, things separate. All things... are there all the time and your brain will want to talk about and think about and bring up everything at all times. It has no control. But, so that's why a system, if you really think about a good productivity system, it has to be able to work in both places because they affect each other so much. So you have to be able to say, this thing is affecting, you know, my work life is affecting my home life, my home life is affecting my work life. It's all just work.

Jason Atwood: It's all just stuff I have to do... especially nowadays in modern work in society and working from home and like there's I can do my work life. I can do my work well and I can do my home life well. I can do life well. Well, you know, I'm not... I'm good at life. People, some people work longer hours, some people work... But it's about, you know, if you work two hours a day at work, but you're totally stressed and it was, you know, and you were getting an ulcer because of it, it's not really about how long you're working. It's about what the type of work you're doing and how it's affecting you. You can work 14 hours a day and, you know, be fine. Like, that's fine. That's what I do. And I, I like it and I'm happy.

Jason Atwood: And I get to spend the time I want with my You can go off buy tickets to a show tonight and then go back and do answer six emails from work It's this internet thing. I know the internet it happens.

Justin Edelstein: I mean, I don't need 43 folders No, you only need 41 folders.

Jason Atwood: We'll talk about 43 folders or Tools in the fourth podcast. This is the second but I think we covered natural planning model I think it gave some insight on that. Again, if you can really just hang into that, what's the next physical, real thing that you can do and can you do it now? Don't tell me that you're going to call the plumber. I'm going to get to call the plumber. You have to get that thing fixed. Okay, call the plumber. Now do it. I don't have the number. So you can't, that's not the next action. So where's the number? Well, I think my friend has it. Okay. Where's your friend? I think the internet has it. Right. Well, the internet has it. Okay. Are you in front of the internet? Okay. Fine. You know, like.

21:56 Jason Atwood: I'm never in front of the internet. It's always around me. I'm always in front of the internet. So that's, that's really tough. If you can get that really, that the next planning, the natural planning model is really to get to that next action.

Justin Edelstein: Don't.